Episode 7: The “New Normal” with Dr. Kee Seng Chia
Transcript
Dr. Wendy Slusser 00:03
Dr. Kee Seng Chia is a professor and founding Dean of the National University of Singapore, School of Public Health. He played a key role in initiating the Healthy Campus Initiative in two major universities in Singapore, Nanyang Technological University and the National University of Singapore. Welcome, Kee Seng. We are so grateful that you’re here with us today to talk about what you’ve done in Singapore to deal with this new pandemic called COVID-19.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 00:34
Thank you very much for having me. I would like to share with you, more in terms of how should we move forward. I think, I’m sure your audience is already very familiar with what’s happening around the world. But I think it is important also to have the right mindset, because we are going to be faced with a new normal.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 00:57
Yeah, well, I’ll tell you, you already educated me about a new mindset a number of years ago, which was almost clairvoyant, in a way. And I’ve been quoting you over the last month or two, because you really introduce the phrase or saying to me, that we need to equate health with wealth. And in fact, I think, you and I would even say we need to raise health higher than wealth, because without health, you have no wealth. And we are seeing this before our very eyes. Tell me, what is it that you feel we have to look forward to as we move into this new phase of the pandemic?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 01:34
So I think, because of these restrictions that we are facing, it’s very natural to kind of look forward to the time when things will be back to normal. We kind of feel that, yeah, you wish it, and that’s a very natural response. And very often we may be thinking more in terms of, oh, how are things actually being subtracted from our life right now. We can’t do this, we can’t do that. And we kind of hate this term, when people tell us that this is going to be the new normal. So I think, for us to be able to move forward with purpose, I’d like to suggest that we need to discard this subtracted kind of viewpoint, and put on ADD. perspectives, for us to add and not to subtract kind of mindset. And by “ADD,” I am referring to “A” standing for to accept the new normal, “D” to define a new normal, and the third “D” to delight in the new normal. So what I like to share is that we need to put on this ADD perspective and not a subtract kind of a mindset.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 02:46
Well, you know, that kind of approach is really something that we’ve heard from other experts in regards to resilience, looking at things from different perspectives. And also, it adds to people’s sense of positive outlook, what you’re relying on people to pivot and be looking at this experience as one that should not be considered necessarily subtracting or taking from your life, but an opportunity to make something maybe different.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 03:18
Yeah, so I meet many people, I say, don’t waste a crisis in that sense. But I think, you know, one way of not wasting this crisis is to help to accept this new normal, to define this new normal, and to delight in this new normal. Because what we’re facing is not going to be a transient phenomena. COVID-19 is not going to go away. Even if we were to find a vaccine tomorrow, we find a miracle cure tomorrow, these solutions, this magic bullets will need to be applied globally and equally. And to do that is going to take quite a while.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 03:59
Just to ask you, why do you think it’s not going to go away?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 04:02
Well, basically, because even if we do have a magic bullet today, it has to be applied globally, and it has to be applied equally. And essentially, that will take quite a while. So take for example, if you find a vaccine. Theoretically you need to vaccinate the entire world, 70 to 80% of the entire population of the world, before you could have sufficient herd immunity. And all you need is just one population who continue to not be vaccinated and continue to have those cases. And when they travel in this globalized world, it will just be seeding new outbreaks everywhere. And in a sense, that’s what you’re seeing in China, that they have locked down and controlled pretty effectively, but now they are faced with imported cases primarily.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 04:58
So therefore what you’re saying about accepting is that this will be here.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 05:04
Yep. Yeah, this will be here for a long, long time.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 05:07
Sort of like smallpox was until we eradicated it, which was a long path before we got there.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 05:15
That’s right. And so, I mean, a lot of people were hoping that like SARS, this will be kind of a V-shaped recovery. You know, especially those in the financial markets, they were hoping for a V-shaped recovery. But now they’re kind of accepting that it might be a U-shaped recovery, it’s going to take a long while before it comes back up. But I would argue that we need to be mentally prepared that be a L-shaped recovery. So that “L,” that horizontal arm is going to be that new normal. Right now, you see many countries basically going through a lockdown, because by the time they realize that this was a problem, there was already widespread community infection. So it’s like driving a car, and suddenly you see a truck coming at you, you pull the emergency brakes. Other countries, say, like in Singapore, when we were lucky to discover it early, we’re actually just tapping the brakes. So we do things progressively. And as things evolve, we change a strategy or we increase the number of measures. But eventually, all countries will have to come into this phase of tapping the brakes. You can’t be in a perpetual lockdown so you got to kind of unwind. But yet, you cannot unwind completely. Because even if you don’t have any more cases within your community, because you opened up again, for economic activity, you’re going to end up with new important cases. And then we see a new local cluster. So this is going to continue for quite a while. I’ll be quite happy if this continues for just a year, but it might even be longer than that.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 07:06
And so what you’re saying is, we will see an economic downturn. And the “L” shape is what you’re predicting, because of the nature of this pandemic’s worldwide spread, which is defined by pandemic, right, that defines a pandemic, but also the nature of this particular virus, is that what you’re saying? It’s the combination?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 07:32
Yeah, that’s correct. So this is a virus that is highly infective. Although the mortality rate is unlikely to be anywhere close to SARS, what we are more concerned with is that the proportion that may require ICU care, intensive care, may be quite high, anything from 10 to 20%. And it basically overwhelms the entire healthcare system. So it may not be the mortality rate that is the main driver, but the complication rate. But in large populations, even with a mortality rate of, say, 1 to 2%, the absolute numbers can be staggering.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 08:21
And so with that degree of morbidity and mortality in large populations, the effort for the economic downturn to recover is just going to take a longer time because of the nature of the disease itself.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 08:36
That’s correct. I mean, it’s going to impact on working life and therefore economic activity would have to be changed. Slow-down is inevitable. So that’s why the economic impact is also very high. But I think I’d like to highlight one point, which I think was very well-stated recently by our Minister who co-chairs our Onterim Ministry Task Force on COVID-19. He highlighted that the primary concern is actually health. And he made a very logical and candid point that the economic impact is going to be there. And you need to actually now put in measures that actually have health as the primary consideration and not economic considerations. So he was very clear that the health and well-being of the population has to be over and above economic considerations. And if you address these health and well-being factors, economic considerations will take care of itself. So here in real life, you see actually a kind of close link between wealth and health. And you see a real live demonstration of health in all policies kind of an of approach.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 10:05
You know, what’s really remarkable is what you and I and so many others have always thought about how much your health is number one, you know, there’s nothing you can do without your health. And this is like a perfect example of how you can’t do anything if you’re not having a healthful well-being, life in the end. I mean, as a community, certainly. And this is, unfortunately, a great tragedy that has to sort of bring it to light to many people. What I’m finding is, what you’ve just said is, the acceptance of the situation is really an acceptance of that belief, right, that health is critical for a successful, thriving, vibrant community. So your next thing was to define the new normal? What is that?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 10:53
Yeah, I think right now, when we think about a new normal, we think of all the restrictions and social distancing. And we kind of call that the new normal. Yes, I think those are components of the new normal. I think each and every one of us would then need to define specifically, what is the new normal for my life? And also contribute to this whole understanding of what should be the new normal in society. And especially, I think, the universities have a role to play. And we must be able to try to help society to define this new normal. So as you know, most tertiary institutions now would go for e-learning. And we basically have to find new ways of teaching for faculty to do that. But students also have to find new ways of learning. So this e-approach for teaching and learning is going to be very much part of the new normal. It has to be escalated very rapidly. I just saw a kind of joke in the internet, where they posted this as a MCQ question. And the question was, who is responsible for digital transformation in your company? And there were four choices. “A” was the CEO. That’s the wrong answer. “B” was the Chief Technology Officer. That is also the wrong answer. “C” was IT Department. That was definitely the wrong answer. And the correct answer is choice “D,” COVID-19.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 12:37
Ha. Necessity is the mother of invention, is that right?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 12:44
Yeah, so COVID-19 will drive and escalate the adoption of digital technology into teaching, into learning. And it will drive the transformation towards a smart nation. So I think one is that the universities will have to play a leadership role and set the example. I’m all dead wood in the university, hah.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 13:11
I don’t believe that.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 13:14
And I have my own favorite way of teaching. And I need to kind of discard all those old-style, old paradigms of teaching. The old paradigm is, we teach to impart knowledge and so forth. But actually, the new way of teaching is I need to teach to make an impact. So instead of teaching to impart, I need to teach to impact. So these new ways of thinking will have to influence the way I teach. And secondly, students also have to now take greater ownership for their own learning, as a result of this digital learning. In the past, at least among Singaporean students, their main concern is they want to learn to be able to pass a module. They want to learn to be able to pass the exams. And now they need to change and say, I need to actually be passionate about learning. So instead of learning just to pass, it’s to develop a passion for learning.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 14:19
And why do you think this kind of learning on platforms will create that kind of mindset? What will make that different?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 14:28
I don’t think the platform itself actually brings about that change. The platform itself would actually then hopefully, the more enlightened students and the more enlightened faculty start to think and reflect on how effective they are using these platforms. In fact, the platforms may show up that, look, there are going to be gaps if we just rely on technology-based teaching and learning. Then it costs the student to now begin to question why they are going through this. Why are they learning? What’s the purpose? I came across an article actually written by a Singaporean student. She was in the UK, I think, doing her International Baccalaureate course. So she came back to Singapore. And the college basically says that exams have been canceled. You will be assessed just based on your day-to-day performance over the entire course. And she wrote an article basically saying that if I knew that there were no exams, would I have actually went about learning in a different way? Would I be asking more questions, rather than memorizing what I need to pass my exams? So to me, that kind of demonstrated that as a result of moving towards a digital platform, students are starting to take greater ownership of the way they learn or what they want to learn, and to perhaps develop passion about learning.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 16:11
Well that’s a very optimistic, I think, and positive outlook for a potential outcome for students and their capacity to embrace and become lifelong learners. That’s really great. So you’ve talked about accepting and defining, and explain to me what you mean by delight in the new normal? What do you mean by that?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 16:35
So we tend to think of, what do we need to do when there’s a new normal. But the new normal is actually not about new ways of doing things. These new ways of doing things must be actually anchored on a new personal, as well as new societal, values. If it had just resulted in just a new way of doing things or different ways of doing things, it tends to be superficial, and we will tend to regress back to the old ways. So what I hope to see as a result of this crisis is that there’ll be new personal and new societal values. So one of which is something that we have always discussed and can talk about, it’s to value health just as much as wealth. Yeah, although right now we see the health seems to be more and we need to focus more on health rather than wealth. But I think in reality, they should be seen as equal because they kind of have a direct impact on each other. Wealth does promote health, and health definitely does promote wealth. So that’s why within our NUS campus, the National University of Singapore, our Healthy Campus Initiative is that we hope that the graduates in five years’ time, 2025, will be graduates who value health just as much as wealth. So we’re talking about an internal value system change. We’re not talking about something that’s just external, and doesn’t cause an internal change. And I think related to that is, the world has been going along the lines of greed is actually good. I think Milton Friedman in the 70s, in his Shareholder Doctrine, seems to emphasize that the sole purpose of a corporation is to generate wealth for its shareholders. And definitely shareholders love that. But the unintended consequence, I suppose, of that doctrine is that it caused a whole era of people who consciously or unconsciously practice this mindset and this value system that greed is good. That is changing, but it’s kind of changing rather slowly with global warming issues, with sustainability issues, with global security issues. But this pandemic, perhaps, would be a good trigger point, to make a quantum leap from this greed is good philosophy, to rather, growth is good. And by growth, I mean, growth in well-being, not just health, but in general well-being. So when I use the term delight, it means that this is something that we embrace, that we want to embrace that we value health just as much as wealth, and we value growth in our well-being. You know, that growth is good. So what I meant by delight in the new normal is a deeper internal change.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 19:56
And how do you feel about how changing values is not easy. What do you think? Do you feel that this pandemic has created a pivot that will enhance this change in values? Or what do we have to do intentionally to work on promoting this value change?
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 20:16
Well I think change has to happen with young people. In a sense, the older generation, like myself, you can’t teach an old dog new tricks. And change must happen with the younger generation. And I would say, people who are 30 years and below, they must drive this change. They must take advantage of this crisis, to say that, look, society must change. And I actually have a lot of confidence and faith in this younger generation.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 20:47
Me too.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 20:49
You see the way that climate change has taken off?
Dr. Wendy Slusser 20:53
That’s right. They’re driving it.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 20:55
Exactly. They’re driving it.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 20:57
And they believe in it, that we need to make changes because of what’s happening.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 21:02
That’s correct. And I hope this pandemic will not cause them to react either in fear or in indifference. But they take this as actually an opportunity to drive a change in value systems in themselves, as well as in society.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 21:23
Well, I do. I also have great confidence in our younger generation. And that’s part of why, I’m sure I don’t know for you, but that’s one of my drivers for why I’m so passionate about the Healthy Campus Initiative at UCLA, is really engaging the next generation of leaders. And we have this huge opportunity to support a group of people who are emerging as leaders of our country and the world. So I think we’re eternally grateful for those really working hard on so many issues, and this will be one of them. The health, equating it to wealth. And I really find your ability to communicate in a way that allows all of us to have some practical approaches to culture change. And I want to thank you for that, very much so. And Kee Seng, I’m sure, you’re considered a treasure at Singapore. But you also are considered one, in my opinion, for us at UCLA. And I’m really grateful for you to share these wisdoms and take the time in your busy day. Thank you so much for all you’ve done and offered us right now, at this time for us at UCLA.
Dr. Kee Seng Chia 22:38
Thank you for inviting me to join this, and you guys keep safe. And just remember that 80% of people who get infected only have very mild symptoms, so we don’t need to actually live in fear.
Dr. Wendy Slusser 22:54
That’s a very good piece to leave us with. And we thank you for that. Thank you for tuning in to “Six Feet Apart,” a special series of the Live Well Podcast. Today’s episode was brought to you by UCLA’s Semel Healthy Campus Initiative Center. To stay up to date with the rest of the episodes in this special series, and to get more information on maintaining your mental, social, and physical well-being during COVID-19, please visit our website at healthy.ucla.edu/livewellpodcasts. Thank you and stay remote.
